Susan Barfield:
Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining another episode of The Leverage Report. Super excited to be joined today by Hunter Shkolnik. Hunter, I’m really excited to hear more about your MTMP panel. But before we dive into that, would love to understand a little bit about your firm and just hear a little bit from you about the why. Why did you pursue a career in law?
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
Well, I’ll answer the last one first, and I’ve been asked this question a number of times. It’s because I couldn’t get into medical school. I came from a long line of doctors and they all expected me to go to medical school, but at the time, I was going to end up having to go to Europe and I didn’t want to do that. Now, having just come back from Europe, I realized I made the big mistake in terms of not studying there, but I think I did the right thing in terms of careers.
But the reason why I got into mass tort is, I was a regular trial lawyer. I tried case after case, and started working with, what I call one of the grandfathers of mass tort during my early years as a trial lawyer. And I wasn’t supposed to be doing any of the mass torts. That was a separate department. And he wasn’t around, I stepped into a case, and it’s all gone from there.
Susan Barfield:
What tort was that?
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
Fen-phen.
Susan Barfield:
Oh, interesting.
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
I was in the office when two of the first fen-phen, the clients in the original study, their case came to the office, and my boss then, who then became my partner, was studying at the Rand Institute, writing a research paper on mass tort. And I saw a good case and I’m like, “I could do this.” And myself and my now partner, Paul Napoli, got together working on the fen-phen case out of New York, which was one of the state coordinations. And once I got a taste of it, I was like, “Wow, this is what I want to do.”
Susan Barfield:
So interesting. Who would you say were your early influences?
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
My early influences were regular trial lawyers, names that you would never know. I worked for some really good, hardcore personal injury, accident, individual product liability, both first on the [inaudible 00:03:02], very briefly on a plaintiff’s side, but then for a number of years in the defense side of a firm based out of New York at a national practice.
I had the opportunity to work with some great trial lawyers on both sides. And when I joined that big firm, they said I would try my first case by the end of my first year and that’s why I joined them. And I did that. And then after that case, which I won, they gave me case after case and next thing you know, it’s five years later and I’ve selected a lot of juries and tried a lot of cases and went back to [inaudible 00:03:42].
Susan Barfield:
Fen-phen, what stands out the most about that case to you, when you think back on it?
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
One of the most tragic situations I’ve ever had to deal with and it burned into my brain, the sufferings we see for our clients. I primarily focused on the PPH cases and we had cases on expedited trial basis. So I spent days and days and weeks in hospital rooms, next to death beds, where clients could only take a deposition for an hour at a time, two hours, and then would collapse, and then I’d take a plane home and find out they were dead.
It’s truly one of the more tragic situations I’ve ever seen, and I know people have been doing asbestos their whole career and they see that, but these were young women who tried to lose four or five pounds to look better in a bikini for the summer, who took a drug that killed them. And it was tragic, with young children.
Susan Barfield:
Yeah. The stories just go on and on.
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
Yep.
Susan Barfield:
Let’s talk a little bit about your panel. So you’re speaking on the 12th at 9:30, Mass Tort Ethical Conundrum. So, tell us.
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
With a great panel with Judge Glenn Norton, Eric Holland, Erin Copeland. Richard Arsenault is moderating. I mean, how could I go wrong with a panel like that?
Susan Barfield:
I know it. This is the panel to be at.
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
[inaudible 00:05:17] we just spend all day on. The great lawyers, great judge, and it’s the ethics of what we do. It’s easy to say, we’re all mass tort lawyers and everybody wants to get in and you see everyone on the mass media now. Oh, I’m going to be the next mass tort lawyer.
The ethics issues that… The high wire acts that we have to follow to make sure this is done right. A lot of lawyers don’t get it. They just think it’s, go buy leads and that’s just warehouse people. They don’t even know their people. They’re warehousing… Use the words that they use like warehouse leads, warehouse retainers.
These are people and there’s ethics that you owe these people. So it’s a really important topic and unfortunately, a lot of people only go to it because they have to go for a CLE credit on ethics. But if some of the smart mass tort lawyers and especially the lawyers that are drawn, I think, to Mass Torts Made Perfect, lawyers who want to learn about, why aren’t I in this or should I get into it?
Susan Barfield:
Sure. Yeah.
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
They really should be going to a panel like this so they understand the problems, the risks, and this is not is the big numbers you see in the news or in the blurbs. It takes a lot to get there and you’re at risk.
Susan Barfield:
Yeah. Well, one section I saw that you’re going to be talking about marketing and you kind of hit on that. Any kind of sneak peeks you can share as it relates to, I see, it’s marketing through various platforms. Maybe talk a little bit about-
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
We’re seeing some real attention. Well, first of all, you can’t open up your email. You can’t go on your apps without seeing an ad. Have you been hurt? Have you been at Camp Lejeune? Did you have a TVM? And I’m like, “No, I never had a transvaginal mesh.” But the onslaught of marketing in social media and the internet has gotten to the point where, I mean, people are looking at it and saying, “What is going on here?”
The amount of money that was spent on Camp Lejeune and the response by the family members, the military families, Congress, everybody is saying, “Is this right?” And for the vast majority of it, it’s 100% right. People are doing it right, but they’re always going to be bad apples. And it’s important for anyone getting into this field, especially to a lot of the people coming to Mass Torts Made Perfect, to learn and get a feel for it.
They’ve got to understand it’s not as simple, “Just whoever sends me an email, trust them. They’ll get me, quote, leads or they’ll get me packets. They’ll get me…” Whatever they want to call it and think that everyone’s complying with the ethical rules. [inaudible 00:08:37]. I mean, there are many cases where they’re not.
Susan Barfield:
It’s interesting. I’ve been in this industry since 2015, working up cases and… I mean, there’s always been bad actors.
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
Absolutely.
Susan Barfield:
Why do you think that Camp Lejeune… Why do you think we’ve seen such a spike in fraudulent claims and the bad actors, simply with Camp Lejeune over the past?
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
Well, I don’t know if they’re fraudulent claims. I don’t want to say that. I think the way I look at it as, whenever you hear governments setting up a statute that’s “presumptive”, that people are going to get compensated, lawyers, rightfully so, should advertise and try to help these people.
Susan Barfield:
Sure.
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
I mean, if anyone saw the settlement program that’s been released and think that a non-legal person can properly process that settlement program, they’re diluting themselves. If anyone in Congress is trying to say, “Look, we’re giving them the money. They don’t even need lawyers.” Let someone there sit down and try to figure that out. We spent a lot of time on it. So I don’t believe it’s that so much fraudulent. I think there was… Everyone realized there was a lot of potential plaintiffs, it was going to be a short turnaround litigation as opposed to the four, five, six-year situations.
The government is the deepest pocket in the world as opposed to some company that’s going to do a Texas two-step and bankrupt themselves to pay people 10 cents on a dollar. So I think it was ripe for a lot of advertising. I just don’t think anyone expected the amount of money that people were able to funnel into it. And maybe it’s because people had some good years, and you don’t want to say this. COVID was a bad time, but in the personal injury field, for some, some mass torts settled. When money’s available after a cycle of settling is… Mass torts are like this usually.
Susan Barfield:
Sure.
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
There’s high points and there’s troughs. It’s not always up here. And there was money available from various sources and we could talk about funding and hedge funds that I’m sure it’s going to come up, but there’s other panels on it. But there was a lot of money available, thinking it’s a turnaround, a quick turnaround litigation, and there are people that have no idea what it means to process a mass tort, signing up hundreds of cases.
Susan Barfield:
Yeah.
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
It wasn’t unexpected, I think. Some of the avenues that were taken may have been questionable. And that’s one of the things I think we’re going to be looking at for years to come, where people accessing data they shouldn’t have. And it’s not just Camp Lejeune. It’s in everything. There’s data out there, and that’s one of the conundrums.
If you’re a lawyer, just signing on with someone who you don’t know is getting those cases for those clients and they’re accessing data, HIPAA protected data or other type of protected data to get you these clients or to quote, in their words, packets, you could be in a lot of trouble. So that’s one of the issues.
Susan Barfield:
Right. Sure. It certainly impacted all of us, for sure, over the past year. Turning to just MTMP and you said something a minute ago about people attending some of the panels because they need to get their CLE credits, but gosh, these panels just have, like you just called out. I mean, that’s a great panel of folks that are going to be speaking. I guess, just thinking about those that are thinking, “Okay, which panels should I attend?” What do you think attendees should hope to learn from these sessions?
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
Well, I think Mass Torts Made Perfect and Mike Papantonio and the whole group, have put together a, just stellar array of programs. So it’s not just, even though the name is Mass Torts, there’s just so many variations on it and outside of mass tort topics. And it also has provided a place for people to get together in our field to share ideas, whether or not it’s in the panels themselves, but there are so many different ones.
But when Richard asked if I would join this ethics panel… There’s been a couple recently that I’ve worked with them on, and with the group that we’re talking about, in retrospect, I wish when I was younger and I went to the early days of Mass Torts Made Perfect. And back in the old days of the other conferences, you barely even went to the ethics ones. And it really is… We all think you get past our ethics exam in law school and just go the straight and narrow, everything’s okay.
But there are such big… There’s problematic minefields in mass tort and obtaining clients in the mass tort field, and properly working with your clients, and then the settlement issues, that they ought to be spending a lot more time at the ethics conferences, ethics panels. And I hope people aren’t doing it just to check a box because if they’re doing this, there’s a bunch of ethics related panels that are going to be there, not just ours, that they should really be looking at.
Susan Barfield:
Well, you talk about attending these conferences throughout the years, and I agree, of course, MTMP is one of the larger ones and it’s exciting to come together in the industry. And like you said, people are so willing to share the things that they’ve learned and the mistakes they’ve made and such. But just over the years, you attending the conferences, do you have a moment to share that illustrates the value for attendees coming to MTMP?
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
Well, what’s real good about MTMP, it’s not the get up there and say how much was my last verdict? How much was my biggest settlement? Most of the people you’re seeing speaking on the various topics, are sort of at the pinnacle of the different areas. And I don’t my, I mean, everybody. They all are real specialists in what they’re doing and saying, and they’ve been doing it a while.
And I think all the panels, depending upon what your practice is looking for, if I was looking to figure out how to market, there are some amazing marketing panels with people that have been doing it for decades now, and it can help you understand it. You hate to use the word, but you’re gambling your money that you could be living on or handling your old-fashioned practice.
If you’re going to invest that kind of money that’s going to affect your bottom line, go to these panels and listen to the different options and the different things. Likewise, if you’re going to get into different mass torts, you don’t learn from a little blurb that you see coming across your social media screens or emails.
You’re going to hear from people that have worked the cases and understand that just because you’re signing up a client in a mass tort case, doesn’t mean you’re instantly getting paid. And when you hear of the settlement, you may have to wait another year or two before you see the money.
Susan Barfield:
Sure.
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
You should go there and listen to people before you start throwing money down black holes sometimes.
Susan Barfield:
Yeah. Well, go to the panels, listen to the experts, like you said, the panels, they have the experts there. Everyone is always available after the panel discussion if you have additional questions. But tell us about networking too, because that’s a great value for people to come and network. Maybe share some of the strategies to maximize networking opportunities and what do you [inaudible 00:17:03].
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
Well, one thing lawyers know how to do is network, those of us in the mass tort field. But truly, that’s one of the things… My long ago partner, when I first got into mass torts, really was big on, “We got to go to conferences, speak.” And not just to speak, but it’s to meet with the other lawyers there and network, and the conferences were smaller. There were 50, 100 people, maybe.
[inaudible 00:17:34]. In Mass Torts Made Perfect, there’s everybody there. You can network with those of you that are in leadership on a case together, where we all know we’re going to be there. Or you want to go meet someone whose name you’ve seen or you’ve heard, and you’ve heard they’ve been in this case and you haven’t been able to cross paths. You can do it there, if you want.
And the one thing I’ve always noticed is, if there’s people on the speaker panels are not hit-and-run, fly in, speak, leave. They’re usually there for a few days for the conference and you have a time… There’s always an opportunity if you want to meet up with someone. Just pat them on the shoulder and say, “Hey, I just want to meet you.” So your working is huge.
Susan Barfield:
Yeah, for sure. No, I’ve found the same. People are so laid back and so willing to connect, and it’s like you said, it’s not flying in, flying out. And so it’s just a great opportunity to get face time with a lot of people, if that’s what you’re interested in. Hunter, this has been fantastic. I’m excited.
I know that there’ll be a lot of people listening to your ethics or they should be listening to your ethics panel. We’re just very grateful for your expertise and thank you so much for taking time to share the insights, the value of attending MTMP, and then what your panel, some of the sneak peeks. So again, we really appreciate your time.
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
Thank you so much for having me here, and I look forward to speaking with Judge Norton, Eric, Erin, and Richard at the panel. It’s going to be good.
Susan Barfield:
Yep. It’s going to be fantastic. Awesome. Thanks, Hunter.
Hunter J. Shkolnik:
Thank you. You take care.
