Dan Miner:
Thank you everyone for joining today. We’re super excited to be joined by Tobi Millrood from Kline & Specter, along with our founder and chair, Susan Barfield. I’m Dan Miner, the CFO and president of Case Works.
Susan Barfield:
Tobi, yes, thank you for taking time to connect with us today. Before we just dive in and start asking you a bunch of questions, I would love to start with a question that I ask a lot of our guests, and that’s a little bit about the why. Why did you get into law? And just interested to hear a little bit about your background and experience.
Tobi Millrood:
Thanks, Susan, Dan, Case Works. Thanks so much for having me on. Yeah, the why. It takes some of our people that’ll be watching this a little bit further back, but there really are two reasons why. One, I’m a little embarrassed to say came from a TV show. I watched L.A. Law a lot and I was mesmerized by these skyscraper meetings where everybody comes to the office, you discuss the cases that you’re going to talk about and then everybody figuratively puts their hands in, go team, and it just seemed like a great collaborative environment with a lot of glamour. I’ve learned since that the law isn’t always skyscrapers and glamour.
But the other reason really was I grew up one of seven kids in the home of a family doctor. My dad’s practice was in the house and I could hear through the door from his office how he helped people, how he helped people really get their life together when they were sick. And I knew that medicine wasn’t my path. I just did not like the sight of blood. That wasn’t my thing. But I know not just from the conscious level, but the subconscious level that the chance to help people in what you do for a living seeped into me. And this just made a lot of sense once I learned a lot about the law that I could marriage my understanding of the law and particularly the area of torts with the opportunity to help people, and then it just became a natural fit.
Susan Barfield:
Yeah. That’s a little bit similar to my background of being in the medical field and just really the medical side and the legal side coming together. And I know today we’re going to spend some time talking about these Roundup cases. So I’d be interested to hear about your experience and how was that really encourage you to work these cases up and how are you handling these Roundup cases based on your background?
Tobi Millrood:
Yeah. I’ve had the really good fortune having some great mentors along the way in the law. And just as fate would have it, I lined up behind a lot of very, very good trial lawyers that saw the courtroom inside the courtroom as their home. And when I have a chance to direct the mass tort department here at Kline & Specter in Philadelphia, one of the things that sold it for me was the whole approach to mass torts here at Kline & Specter is we do a mass tort if ultimately the project allows us to get into the courtroom and try cases. And so when I found out that the approach to Roundup would be not just working them up and collecting them and waiting for maybe a hopeful day to have a conversation with the other side, but actually go to bat for these clients, go into the courtroom, try these cases, and get the best possible value for all of your clients. It was a perfect fit.
Susan Barfield:
Well, we certainly appreciate that. I know that there’s Kline & Specter has been recognized lately based on some of the hearings that have been over the last couple of weeks. And so I wanted to get your… Dan, I think this was one of your questions actually, and I just started asking it.
Dan Miner:
So I’ll take it. So a lot of activity in the litigation recently, talk about trying cases. Your firm has had a successful jury verdict of $175 million in your favor. Can you talk a little bit more about what prepared your team for the trial and where you see this litigation going?
Tobi Millrood:
Yeah, so we had a conversation with another firm that is really close friends with our firm. We’ve done a lot of good work with them in the past together with the Arnold & Itkin firm of Houston, Texas. And we got to talking about how these cases have been tried to date and why it is that at that time the plaintiffs were on a losing streak of having lost nine in a row and really what could be done differently. And our two firms put our heads together and decided that we would really try to come at this case a very different way. And Kline & Specter’s client, Ernie Caranci, was the perfect client to take into the courtroom. Sadly, as a result of 20 years of exposure to Roundup on a very, very large property, Ernie developed non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, not only one subtype of non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, but two separate subtypes and has had a total of four recurrences.
He’s as honest a client as I’ve ever represented in my 30 years of practice, and we put on a really strong case with our partners at Arnold & Itkin and we’re very grateful that this Philadelphia jury who paid such careful attention to the evidence, there was a lot of evidence put in front of them, and this was a jury who was in rapt attention to the evidence, not the kind of jury that dozed off or didn’t seem interested. They were on the edge of their seats listening to every single witness, paying careful attention to the facts, and we’re grateful that in a difficult case against very, very able counsel against a company that obviously knew how to win these cases, we put our best foot forward and prevailed. We’re very grateful to the jury system, this jury for rendering this verdict that was very deserving to our client.
Dan Miner:
Very good. And Tom-
Susan Barfield:
Tobi-
Dan Miner:
[inaudible 00:08:24]. You want that Susan or you want me to?
Susan Barfield:
No, go ahead.
Dan Miner:
All right. Very good, Tobi. Tom Kline from your firm recently said that the verdict is a harbinger for things to come in this litigation. Is that change in tactic something that you see is going to continue to favor the plaintiffs or does he have something else in mind for where this litigation goes down the road?
Tobi Millrood:
Well, Tom’s got vast experience taking these mass tort cases into trial in the courtroom, getting monumental verdicts. In the Risperdal case, he achieved an $8 billion verdict. So Tom’s vision and his ability to see forward in time I think is very, very sage guidance to really all of the plaintiff’s bar. And I think what I’m hearing from Tom’s message is that at least this firm and certainly the Arnold & Itkin firm, when they go into try cases and bring us into the courtroom with them, intend on keep pushing cases forward into the courtroom where these should be tried. Until Monsanto and Bayer and Nurion, all of the responsible parties here understand the true gravity of their actions and frankly, they’re inactions.
Monsanto and Bayer publicly announced to the world that they were going to do the right thing and remove glyphosate from this formulated product of Roundup and that that was to have occurred a long time ago. And they, for whatever reason, have chosen not to do the right thing. Not only that, but they’ve chosen not to warn consumers that show up to Lowe’s and Home Depot and the mom and pop hardware store. Those are still unsuspecting individuals that are going to go in pick up a bottle of Roundup.
It’s not going to tell them to wear a mask. It’s not going to tell them to wear gloves. It’s not going to tell them to wear long pants. It’s not going to tell them to wear a long sleeve shirt, and it’s not going to tell them that this product unquestionably increases the risk and can cause non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. The mounting evidence in the scientific realm is pretty unmistakable at this point. I think recent juries have agreed with that, and so it’s hard to understand why they’re making that conscious disregard for consumers. But we’re going to keep holding them accountable until they understand the right thing to do.
Susan Barfield:
After the win, Tobi, have you had firms reach out? I mean, what do you think? Firms, are they going to go out and try to acquire a lot of new Roundup cases? What would you suspect?
Tobi Millrood:
I suspect there will be a lot of folks that go out and get cases, but I hope for the right reasons. I think in the mass tort area, again, unquestionably people are being hurt by this product, and so they do need representation, but I emphasize the word representation where their claims are actually represented and pushed forward and that there’s lawyers in that firm who from soup to nuts, from the filing of the case through the appellate process, if need be, will be able to guide that client’s case with great professionalism and competency. And I’m grateful that we have brought on a lot, a lot of clients who understand that Kline & Specter not only has a track record of that generally in all complex catastrophic injury, but certainly in mass tort as well and specifically in Roundup.
Susan Barfield:
Yeah. We have a lot of listeners that one, are in the mass tort space, but some that are in the personal injury space looking to get into some type of mass tort. So maybe it’s Roundup. And so one thing I wanted to ask you was just to give a little high level. I know we’re deep in talking about this, but give a little high level for any listeners that may not be up to speed on the Roundup litigation, just some of the criteria and the backstory on this litigation.
Tobi Millrood:
Yeah. So Roundup, as Tom Kline likes to say, in 30 years of trying cases, it’s the first and only product that he’s ever had the opportunity to put in front of a jury where on the face of the product it says killer. I mean, on the bottle of Roundup, it said, “Roundup is a weed and grass killer.” And that is what the product is intended to do. It is intended to kill. It is intended to kill unwanted weed, unwanted grass through an active ingredient called glyphosate. Monsanto got this product onto the market in 1974 and come next year, this will have been continuously sold in the United States for 50 years. In 2018, Bayer bought the product from Monsanto. Now Bayer owns the product. The product works to kill weeds through an active ingredient called glyphosate and additional ingredients. Some of the ingredients that help to kill include a group of surfactants called POEA surfactants.
What a surfactant does is its sticks and spreads. That’s the nature of a surfactant. And in particular, what makes Roundup succeed in killing weeds is that the surfactant helps the product to stick on the leaf and spread on the leaf. Well, folks listening might naturally, logically conclude if it sticks and spreads to leafs, what is it going to do to the skin? In addition, although they are small, very particles of the compound in the formulated product of Roundup, it includes things like arsenic, formaldehyde, NNG. These are all things that consumers don’t know when they pick up the product. And I don’t know about you guys, but if I went and picked up any product that was going to be exposed to my face, my breathing, my skin that had arsenic or formaldehyde, I would take a pass on it no matter what small percentage was involved in that product.
But this product has been sold and used at the residential level, around home and garden, but at the farming level. And in fact, what happened was the Roundup product was so successful to kill that it not only was it killing weeds and grass, it was killing in the agricultural space, it was killing crops as well. So what Roundup did, what Monsanto did is they went to farmers and said, “Not only do we want you to buy our Roundup, but we’re going to actually sell you something called Roundup Ready seeds that are going to be a perfectly modified seed that will prevent that seed from facing the killing action of Roundup.” So what Roundup as a product did was multiplied revenue for that company, not only for the killing action of the product itself, but for the seeds that would be used in crop.
Early on, there were warning signs from environmental agencies that suggested that glyphosate was a carcinogen, a cancer causer. And there has been a steady drumbeat for decades now that has looked into the question of does Roundup cause cancer, particularly non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. And in 2015, a worldwide authority from the World Health Organization called the International Agency for the Research on Cancer, or IARC, concluded in its monograph, specifically looking at the question of glyphosate and its relationship to cancer, that there was strong cellular evidence, strong animal evidence, and indeed human evidence as well from human studies. So all three pillars of cancer causation, cell line, animal studies, human studies, all of them supported the finding that glyphosate is a risk to humans and causing non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma.
And really since that time, the battle has been joined and it’s been a war. Really, it shouldn’t have to be. We really believe the right thing to do. Right away, despite all the warning signs that Monsanto had before the 2015 monograph, Monsanto had the opportunity to do the right thing and either add a warning for consumers to know or not use glyphosate. But instead after this monograph, they double down. They try to disregard IARC, try to throw them under the bus, and they’ve done nothing with the product. The same product that you could buy in 2015 is the same product you can buy in 2023. Notwithstanding all this mounting evidence of cancer causation.
Susan Barfield:
Gosh, it’s hard to hear and listen. Do you ever see people using Roundup today and stop and say anything to them?
Tobi Millrood:
Sure, all the time. When I just am at regular functions, social functions, and people say, “Well, what are you working on? What’s the project you’re working on?” I say, “Well, the thing that’s taken up most of my time is the Roundup litigation.” They say, “Oh, I’ve got Roundup in my garage.” And I say, “Well, let me just tell you a thing or two about Roundup. Let me give you the warning and then I’ll let you decide what to do.” And every single person I’ve ever given the warning to, just to say it’s possible that there’s an increased risk, once the warning is given, the conclusion is, “Wait a second, I’m pulling weeds. I’m throwing this thing away. I’ll pull weeds with my hands.”
Susan Barfield:
Right. Yep. What has been the biggest challenge in this litigation?
Tobi Millrood:
I think the biggest challenge is in the law when you’re facing a tough adversary, there’s relentless bites at the apple. And although I think the right thing to do is to compensate individuals and recognize the dangers of this product, instead Monsanto and its enormous legal teams, it was rumored that in our Caranci case, that Monsanto had assembled a team of 70 lawyers to take us on. I mean, you talk about a true David versus Goliath battle. And so the challenge really is that we are going against a Goliath with an endless well of resources, with an endless playbook of trying to dismiss and distract the scientific evidence that’s unmistakable that their product can cause cancer. And they come at it every which way. They’ve publicly announced if they’re not successful in the courtroom, they’ll go to the legislature. If they’re not successful at the legislature, they’ll go to the regulatory agencies. They’re going to keep going and going and going until they can try to get a get out of jail free card. And I’m just proud to be a guardian at the gate to prevent them from doing that.
Susan Barfield:
Yeah, absolutely.
Dan Miner:
Very cool. With $2 billion or so in verdicts recently, do you ever see this coming to an end? And it could happen in multiple ways, but one is the product coming off the shelves, two is warnings, three is driving to, “Okay, we made a mistake. Let’s start to settle.” But where do you see this thing going?
Tobi Millrood:
I think eventually, oftentimes in these very large mass torts, the market resolves itself, whether it’s a board, whether it’s investors, whether it’s the sheer weariness of paying out large sums of money or a combination of all of those. Eventually the market will dictate to bear and its board and its leadership and its investors that we have made a product that harms people and whatever we want to say publicly about it not harming people, juries are consistently believing the opposite. It does harm people, and we have a choice. We have to compensate a lot of people a reasonable sum that can compensate them for their injuries. Or we can try these cases one at a time and burden our company and burden our investors and burden the markets. And again, I think eventually the market will dictate when the time is right. We’re going to keep trying cases for Bayer and Monsanto to understand that.
Susan Barfield:
For the firms that have an inventory of cases currently that maybe aren’t actively working them up or whatever the case may be, but they’re sitting on a large sum of cases, what’s your number one advice to them?
Tobi Millrood:
Right. Well, I have to say I’m always having now done mass tort for a couple of decades, there’s terminology and lingo that always makes it a little uneasy for me because at the end of the day, these are not class action cases. These are individual cases. These are individuals who have a name, who have an injury. And so I’m always a little leery to talk about an inventory of cases. But what I would say to those firms who are representing a whole bunch of individuals who have been hurt by Roundup is that I believe that Bayer and Monsanto has the greatest fear about those people that you represent. If those people are going to walk into the courtroom and get a result like Ernie Caranci, and I’ve been doing this for a long time, and consistently those that go in the courtroom try cases and get results do better for their clients.
And we’ve been very, very fortunate. We have a huge number of referral partners who we are so grateful to work in true partnership with, who recognize that, who recognize that their best value for their clients, for the horrible injury they’ve suffered is going to come through a law firm who goes in the courtroom and tries cases. So my advice is, whether it’s us or another trial law firm, we think we get really outstanding results and the history proves that, but you should really align your clients with firms who are prepared to actually take those clients and hold Monsanto accountable on the mat.
Susan Barfield:
Yeah, I think that’s great advice. Prepare all cases as though they’re going to be going to court. One question I have-
Tobi Millrood:
The client really… Most sophisticated clients expect nothing less. There’s a lot of clients who say, “Are you going to take my case in the courtroom? Are you prepared to do so?” And all lawyers should be able to honestly tell those clients, “I have the resources to do so. I have the know-how to do so. I have the desire to do so.” If you can’t say that in mass tort, you should get your client to someone who can. If a client called me and says, “Listen, I’m concerned. I’m getting to the end of my life and I’ve got non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. Tobi, will you help me set up a will?” I don’t have the resources personally. I don’t know how to set up wills. I don’t really have the desire to set up wills, and I’m going to take that person. I’m going to say, “Call this attorney. They’re an expert in the area of setting up your will.” That’s what personal injury lawyers should do if they’re not well seasoned in how to try mass tort cases.
Susan Barfield:
For sure. Well, one question I want to ask you. I know when we heard the news that the verdict had been reached and that your group and Arnold & Itkin was part of the verdict on Ernie’s case, we were so excited for you, and I’m sure people ask you. It’s like, what does that feel like to you to hear that the results and the verdict, what is it like to win a verdict of that magnitude?
Tobi Millrood:
There’s so much that goes in, blood, sweat, and tears to these cases. It’s a very, very emotional outcome.
Susan Barfield:
Sure.
Tobi Millrood:
It’s very rare when I’ve had a verdict that my reaction is I’m jumping up and screaming in joy. Most of the time it comes with a little bit of bittersweetness. It’s a sadness that I realized in order for me to get this result, my client had to really, really suffer and something I will never forget for the rest of my life. We didn’t know exactly what was going to be the timeline of when the jury would return with its verdict. And Ernie is currently in treatment for his fourth recurrence. So while he lives in the city of Philadelphia, he’s not right near the courthouse. So we weren’t going to have him keeping shuttling back and forth.
So Ernie was at home with his wife, Carmela, who next year they’ll be married 60 years. And Ernie’s an Italian immigrant and so is his wife, Carmela. And Carmela has never really picked up the English language. And so Tom and I called Ernie on speaker and reported the verdict to him. And of course his reaction was he really had to hear it again, what the verdict was, and he started getting excited. And then Carmela, you could tell in the background, was saying, “Is everything okay? Is everything okay?” And he basically expressed in Italian, “We won.” And she said, whatever it was back in Italian, “We won?” And I’ll never ever forget the joy of that moment, hearing the client’s reaction. And truly, he was a true pioneer, the first case to be tried in Philadelphia, and he and Carmela are remarkable people.
Susan Barfield:
Yeah. I can only imagine. I mean, I get worked up just hearing the story. It’s like you said, it’s bittersweet. People have to suffer significantly, but you’re there seeking justice for them and for Ernie and his wife. I can only imagine. It’s not about you winning, it’s about what you did for them and standing up for them. So that’s a really exciting time, for sure. Tobi, we are just delighted that you took time to talk with us about your background and about the litigation and about the verdict that was won on Ernie’s case. We certainly are grateful for your experience and for your dedication to continuing to stand up against these manufacturers and seek justice for these plaintiffs. So thank you so much for taking time to share this with us today.
Tobi Millrood:
Yeah. I’m grateful to you guys for the role that you play in all of this. These mass tort cases come with enormous volume and they can’t be managed without trusted partners who do the right things. So I want to thank you guys for being partners in this fight.
Susan Barfield:
For sure. Absolutely.
Dan Miner:
Thank you.
Susan Barfield:
Thank you.
